<<P 18 sounds like dime bags on the street corner>>
Those sell like crazy.
Bill C
On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 1:11 PM, Scott Jackson s_jackson34_at_hotmail.com
[Indoor_Construction] <Indoor_Construction_at_yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>
> Indoor outdoor control line free flight
>
> We tried them all
>
> In the 1930s One club all of the above
>
> It was more show and tell
>
> Competition much later
>
> Now _at_ 82 Fly to fill the sky
>
> Mass Launches are beautiful
>
> But Romak, flying neighbor,
>
> Brings out DAWN PATROL
>
> The majestic big bird gracefully goes up in the sky three minutes for
> rubber power
>
> We are past record competition enjoying beautiful things are overhead
>
> P 18 sounds like dime bags on the street corner
>
> Mentor them you have to invest in them if they are to be hooked and become
> part of your tribe
>
> ===============
>
> BTW. it is sad to see untutored kids and science Olympics here in sac
> State
>
> All of you accomplished builder flyers could invest in mentoring these
> kids will bring slabs of balsa and call them model airplanes
>
> LOOK
>
> UP IN THE SKY
>
> Not SUPERMAN
>
> A Raptor
>
> A model
>
> Both riding the WIND
>
>
>
>
> Fellow on a Cello🎻
>
> On Jun 8, 2016, at 11:46 AM, William Carney wcarneyjx_at_gmail.com
> [Indoor_Construction] <Indoor_Construction_at_yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> <<Why would we make the event official if we adopted your proposal? It
> would not be possible to keep records, and nobody could win the event at
> NATS>>
>
> On the whole winning is not the point for the beginner. And by the way,
> there is plenty of incentive and building and flying to be done by a
> beginner before he or she gets to the point that they can do two minutes
> three times in one day.
>
> It is seeing things from the top down that make us think winning and
> records are what matters. If we don't have more participants in a few years
> it'll be really easy to win and set records all alone.
>
> Bill C
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 5:45 PM, Jake Palmer 82.jake_at_gmail.com
> [Indoor_Construction] <Indoor_Construction_at_yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Why would we make the event official if we adopted your proposal? It
>> would not be possible to keep records, and nobody could win the event at
>> NATS.
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 4:17 PM, William Carney wcarneyjx_at_gmail.com
>> [Indoor_Construction] <Indoor_Construction_at_yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sure Jake, but at some time in the future it will be an official event.
>>> I don't want to see it go the way of EZB.
>>>
>>> Bill C
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 4:39 PM, Jake Palmer 82.jake_at_gmail.com
>>> [Indoor_Construction] <Indoor_Construction_at_yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Just for clarification, the P-18 proposal is to make it a provisional
>>>> event. That means it can't be flown as an official event at NATS, and no
>>>> records will be kept.
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 3:10 PM, Chris pseshooter3d_at_yahoo.com
>>>> [Indoor_Construction] <Indoor_Construction_at_yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That works too. Like I said, I have no dog in this fight, so it's all
>>>>> good.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is always this option as well....if no records are going to be
>>>>> kept, draft a very basic set of rules and let the people that actually fly
>>>>> the event drive its evolution. In A6 for example, the people building and
>>>>> flying the event thought plastic covering best served the interests of the
>>>>> event and competitors. Now any kid building an A6 can legally use a veggie
>>>>> bag and have a competitive model.
>>>>>
>>>>> To be very honest, if records are not being kept and there is
>>>>> effectively no winner, why have rules at all, beyond the size of the model
>>>>> and prop?
>>>>>
>>>>> I mean really, that will keep the record hunters away, as there is no
>>>>> record to obtain. By eliminating a winner, there is no incentive, beyond
>>>>> personal goals, to push the performance of the model. Finally without a
>>>>> defined winner, it is truly just for fun.
>>>>>
>>>>> If that is the case, and we just want a fun event to introduce people
>>>>> to indoor, why does it even need to be an official AMA event?
>>>>>
>>>>> Chris
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jun 7, 2016, at 2:43 PM, William Carney wcarneyjx_at_gmail.com
>>>>> [Indoor_Construction] <Indoor_Construction_at_yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <<With regards to the max rule, how about a two minute max per flight,
>>>>> with 3 maxes getting you into a fly off. For the fly off, increase the max
>>>>> by a minute per flight. Once you no longer max but other fliers do, you
>>>>> are out of the fly off. This sounds really similar to how outdoor glider,
>>>>> P30, and other outdoor AMA events work. I don't see why it wouldn't work
>>>>> indoor. If that becomes too easy, set a max time and specify flights must
>>>>> be no touch. That'll keep it interesting in Cat 1.>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Chris,
>>>>>
>>>>> This totally defeats the purpose of the Max Out rule. You put a
>>>>> beginner in a fly off with Jim Richmond and he/she is gonna get creamed no
>>>>> matter what the rules. Soon experts will be doing 4 minutes and dominating
>>>>> the event. We need to de-incentivize the experts from pushing times up. The
>>>>> best way I can think of to do this is to remove the ability for them to
>>>>> beat up on all the beginners. They can tie them but they can't beat them
>>>>> except the ones who can't do two minutes yet.
>>>>>
>>>>> Remember this is entry level. We are not trying to reinvent the wheel.
>>>>> As I've said I don't want to see these things doing 5 minutes. The day we
>>>>> do the event has lost it's purpose. Oh and another thing, let's borrow a
>>>>> page from FAC and be sure that no records are kept.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know that what I am pushing is counter intuitive to the competition
>>>>> based indoor mindset. I personally don't care who wins a P-18 event. It's
>>>>> purpose is to attract beginners not 'win all costs' experts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill C
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 7:26 PM, Chris pseshooter3d_at_yahoo.com
>>>>> [Indoor_Construction] <Indoor_Construction_at_yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With regards to the max rule, how about a two minute max per flight,
>>>>>> with 3 maxes getting you into a fly off. For the fly off, increase the max
>>>>>> by a minute per flight. Once you no longer max but other fliers do, you
>>>>>> are out of the fly off. This sounds really similar to how outdoor glider,
>>>>>> P30, and other outdoor AMA events work. I don't see why it wouldn't work
>>>>>> indoor. If that becomes too easy, set a max time and specify flights must
>>>>>> be no touch. That'll keep it interesting in Cat 1.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Chris
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jun 6, 2016, at 8:56 PM, William Carney wcarneyjx_at_gmail.com
>>>>>> [Indoor_Construction] <Indoor_Construction_at_yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Chris,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for the kind words. I'm hoping that the discussion soon moves
>>>>>> from the rational for the event itself and moves to the active discussion
>>>>>> about what the rules for the event will be.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have yet to see any cross discussion regarding my "Max
>>>>>> Out" suggestion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bill C
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 4:59 PM, Chris pseshooter3d_at_yahoo.com
>>>>>> [Indoor_Construction] <Indoor_Construction_at_yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bill C,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You bring up some good points and your responses show thought and
>>>>>>> insight into the event. Note that my questions are/were not because I do
>>>>>>> not favor the event, but rather to see if another event was being added
>>>>>>> just for the sake of it, or if there was a clear rationale.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I might add though that sometimes we underestimate our beginners. I
>>>>>>> worked with a student who prior to 2015 had 0 modeling experience. That
>>>>>>> young man went to the Kent State contest and broke the Cat2 Jr. F1L record
>>>>>>> and flew A6 within a minute of Gowen's time. Good performance in advanced
>>>>>>> events is very possible for new fliers, provided they have a decent
>>>>>>> mentor. If people who want to fly indoor are having a hard time finding a
>>>>>>> mentor they are doing something terribly wrong as everyone I have met in
>>>>>>> indoor, including the most competitive experts, are always willing to help.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> With luck P18 will serve as a good gateway model---"son, where did
>>>>>>> you learn how to do this?"---"I learned it from watching you dad!!!" and
>>>>>>> the more advanced events will grow. I for one would love to see 10+ F1Ls
>>>>>>> and LPP's in the air at Kent.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Chris
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jun 6, 2016, at 4:56 PM, William Carney wcarneyjx_at_gmail.com
>>>>>>> [Indoor_Construction] <Indoor_Construction_at_yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hey Chris,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hear are my thoughts in response to your questions:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <<I can see how P18 would attract new fliers. But then what? Are
>>>>>>> they going to fly P18 forever? If the idea of competition in the other
>>>>>>> indoor events is a barrier to entry for a lot of people, I would think that
>>>>>>> P18 only delays the inevitable.>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Then what" is probably LPP and then what ever they like, maybe they
>>>>>>> get to see some scale models flying indoor and get hooked on that.. P-18,
>>>>>>> if kept at it's entry level operating style should give them confidence to
>>>>>>> move. Maybe along the way they win a local contest or two scoring their
>>>>>>> P-18 in LPP. By the time the do that They are an indoor flyer. Something we
>>>>>>> need more of.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <<I would also like to know what bag of tricks you are referring to
>>>>>>> that "ruins" other events. >>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The bag of expert tricks is deep and wide not just limited to
>>>>>>> building and trimming. Experts also have access to rule changes. Remember
>>>>>>> what A-6 was like in the beginning?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <<One just has to be willing to accept the techniques of the experts
>>>>>>> and learn them.>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Having an airplane they can actually BUILD on their own without
>>>>>>> special tools and equipment is crucial. Seeing their own handiwork fly is
>>>>>>> something they will not forget. P-18 provides a learning platform that is
>>>>>>> accessible to the average Joe. extraordinary candidates will move past it
>>>>>>> quickly
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <<Again, I get how P18 could get fliers into the indoor scene, but
>>>>>>> how do we keep them if they fear competition?>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We provide them an arena in which to gain confidence free from
>>>>>>> experts getting scores they can't fathom achieving.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for the discussion.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bill C
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 1:07 PM, Chris pseshooter3d_at_yahoo.com
>>>>>>> [Indoor_Construction] <Indoor_Construction_at_yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I can see how P18 would attract new fliers. But then what? Are
>>>>>>>> they going to fly P18 forever? If the idea of competition in the other
>>>>>>>> indoor events is a barrier to entry for a lot of people, I would think that
>>>>>>>> P18 only delays the inevitable.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I would also like to know what bag of tricks you are referring to
>>>>>>>> that "ruins" other events. A mechanized VP prop would be the one thing
>>>>>>>> that might give first time builders trouble. But for a weight restricted
>>>>>>>> event like LPP or F1L, I just don't see anything out there that is too
>>>>>>>> difficult. I think quite the opposite is happening actually. The modern
>>>>>>>> LPP being built of carbon fiber is easier to build due to the fact that
>>>>>>>> expensive balsa does not need to be graded and tested for stiffness. The
>>>>>>>> carbon hub LPP prop that is being more widely used is also not difficult to
>>>>>>>> construct. If one simply does some research, they will find that this
>>>>>>>> indoor thing while difficult to master, is not difficult to get started
>>>>>>>> in. One just has to be willing to accept the techniques of the experts and
>>>>>>>> learn them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Again, I get how P18 could get fliers into the indoor scene, but
>>>>>>>> how do we keep them if they fear competition?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Chris
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Jun 6, 2016, at 2:47 PM, William Carney wcarneyjx_at_gmail.com
>>>>>>>> [Indoor_Construction] <Indoor_Construction_at_yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The purpose is to attract new indoor flyers. The purpose of the Max
>>>>>>>> Out suggestion is to keep it approachable to beginners. I'm not trying to
>>>>>>>> discourage anybody from flying the event, just to keep them from ruining
>>>>>>>> it. All of the experts' bag of tricks are useless and actually detrimental
>>>>>>>> in the event. I don't want to see these things flying for 5 minutes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bill C
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 12:40 PM, William Carney <
>>>>>>>> wcarneyjx_at_gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Good point Bill. We don't want this event to attract experienced
>>>>>>>>> flyers. We want it to attract raw beginners. There does need to be a
>>>>>>>>> balance though. For an event to be considered successful it must have
>>>>>>>>> participants. I think a club who has a high number of experts who can Max
>>>>>>>>> Out in P-18 might be a club who is having a lot of fun without ruining the
>>>>>>>>> appeal of the event to beginners.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Experts can fly this event all they want, but they are not going
>>>>>>>>> to 'sour the milk' if all they can do is three maxes. Any real expert or
>>>>>>>>> progressing new indoor flyer is going to see quickly that a real LPP will
>>>>>>>>> be far superior to a P-18 and will want to build one to compete as such.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Some will take many seasons to get there P-18 to do 2 minutes
>>>>>>>>> consistently, during which time they are exposed to the sights and
>>>>>>>>> atmosphere of indoor flying.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bill C
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 7:17 PM, William Gowen wdgowen_at_gmail.com
>>>>>>>>> [Indoor_Construction] <Indoor_Construction_at_yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Maybe you can just make a list of all the people who you consider
>>>>>>>>>> too advanced to fly the event and attach that to the rules.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Or maybe you can come up with a rule that anyone who has ever
>>>>>>>>>> flown a legal AMA indoor duration model in their lifetime is barred from
>>>>>>>>>> the event
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I really don't see that this event has any attraction for
>>>>>>>>>> advanced fliers. I've already said that I won't fly it. And that doesn't
>>>>>>>>>> mean that I'm opposed to the event.
>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 5, 2016 8:51 PM, "William Carney wcarneyjx_at_gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> [Indoor_Construction]" <Indoor_Construction_at_yahoogroups.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ray,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I propose that this event be flown as a two minute max event. No
>>>>>>>>>>> fly offs, no tie breakers. If an contestant wants to get full credit for
>>>>>>>>>>> his/her efforts they may but the times are scored as an official in LPP.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The purpose of this proposal is the remove the incentive of
>>>>>>>>>>> "Experts" from flooding the event and making it unappealing to a true
>>>>>>>>>>> beginner. If you can get one of these things to fly for two minutes three
>>>>>>>>>>> times in one day you are probably ready to tackle a true LPP and then... By
>>>>>>>>>>> the time a beginner has gotten enough experience to "Max Out" a P-18 he or
>>>>>>>>>>> she has set the Indoor FF hook pretty deep.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The rules, as written, produce an airplane that make two minutes
>>>>>>>>>>> a nominal goal. I kike seeing these models fly as they are very "indoor
>>>>>>>>>>> like" and I've seen their appeal to the public. I just don't want to see
>>>>>>>>>>> these things doing 5 minutes. Sure irt can probably be done but that is not
>>>>>>>>>>> the point of the event.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Bill C
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jun 4, 2016 at 3:54 PM, rbharlan_at_comcast.net
>>>>>>>>>>> [Indoor_Construction] <Indoor_Construction_at_yahoogroups.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The cross proposal window is May 31 to July 15, so now is the
>>>>>>>>>>>> time to submit any cross proposals.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I expect to submit one to change the prop size max to 6",
>>>>>>>>>>>> instead of 5.5". There are a lot more 6" props out there than 5.5's, namely
>>>>>>>>>>>> at Volare who has six kinds of 6" props.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I haven't checked for a specific cross proposal form at AMA,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and, of course, if I check now, Yahoo will blow away all of this discourse
>>>>>>>>>>>> and I don't want to type it again
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> What other ideas do you have for the event, Bill?.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ray
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
Received on Wed Jun 08 2016 - 14:02:59 CEST